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25 June 2010

Comments

Kevin Perez

And a lot of people in America find the existence of Yvonne Moore, as a Black woman, disgusting and offensive as well...Or disgusting that a Black women could be so judgemental and self-rightous.

Who are women, of ANY color, to show their disapproval in the first place? The Bible doesn't say very nice things about you girls, either.


TheRevKev

Good riddance to unloving spirits!

soulbrotha

How difficult it must be for older people who are set in their ways to accept change and new ways of thinking. They are scared of a new world and will fight tooth and nail to protect the old one. One good thing is that she took into consideration that the gay struggle is parallel to the Black struggle. That small opening could mean a change of heart in the future. Hopefully her gay friends will continue to reach out to her through reason, facts and love.

S. Flemming

Yeah, and I wonder how many baby daddies and bastard grankids she's got ... *rolls eyes* ... chile bye.

jaiho25

Ok,one thing I don't get is why is she trying to get reimbursed for the tithes she gave? Isn't the purpose of tithing is to give to God? Or am I mistaken?

Isaac

This lady just needs to be educated. Most "Christians" do. Get your head out of the clouds. God is not up there. People are quick to disagree with what they don't know. I like what the pastor said, "You can't just read the bible and think that you have mastered the word of god."

AJ Terrel

alright now, don't be negative. keep in mind that the church does do good, and we aren't all ignorant and i personally don't believe her" baby daddies and bastard grankids" have anything to do with her opinions.

we need to stop tearing each other down. she's just ignorant. plain and simple. she is older and she's been taught all her life that being gay is wrong, she probably thinks it's a choice.

but don't mistake me. this isn't an excuse. however, when negativity and hate combat negativity and hate, NO ONE, and I repeat NO ONE wins.

now when love combats negativity and hate. we show the God in us. we follow the Christ path.

all have sinned and fallen short, and as a gay child born out of wedlock, i know that God loves me, and expects me to share that love with ALL his children (no matter how much they might PISS ME OFF)

"Texas Instruments"/Teli Gabalis/Teli Savalis/Howard van Patterson/Etc.

[BANNED. OBSCENE COMMENTS AND EMAILS, BIZARRE GRAPHIC SEXUAL RANTS, ETC. HAVE YOU CONSIDERED THERAPY AND MEDICATION, "GURL"? -RM]

Ravenback

@ AJ Terrel

We'll stop tearing down the church when the church stops tearing down gay folks. I think you got it wrong. The problem is that too many gay folks attend these homophobic churches and say absolutely nothing about the derisive comments coming from the pastors, preachers, ministers, priests, and other church leaders. I don't care if the church isn't feeling any love from me. I only care about people who care about me.

If I seem to come off a little harsh, I don't care. I'm tired of people saying that we (the LGBT community) must be quiet and patient while others vehemently attack us. I agree with you that God loves us all; however, those who pretend to speak the word of God are constantly bashing us. Unfortunately, they are the ones who are getting all of the attention.

Ravenback

And another thing. Age is no excuse for ignorance. Does anyone remember the saying that with age comes wisdom? My parents are 70 and 81 years old, and they have been nothing but fully accepting of my homosexuality and believe in full rights for LGBT folks no matter the issue. So age is no excuse for ignorance and intolerance. Grow up.

Kevin Perez

You make a excellent, obnoxious Pollyana, AJ Terrel. This woman isn't going to change her attitudes at all either, soulbrotha. So please, stop with the corny notion all she need is LGBT to tell her facts and show her love.

No wonder why we are such easy targets. I wonder how many of our so-called Straight allies feel the same way as well.

CC

The Devil is alive and well is this old bat!

TR

What happened to giving from the heart?

nahtans

75 and never been kissed... must be a bitter pill to see Toni and Latrell walk down that aisle...

She was married to the church SMH

apres moi

Ok. Obviously, the other fact isn't being brought to light here is that she spent $250K on tithings???? She should've saved that money for her retirement. $250K in savings could've easily made her a millionaire and let her help out her family. Obviously, this shows how much the churches love having fools like her, regardless of color, attend their churches and give them their money.

soulbrotha

@Kevin Perez

"This woman isn't going to change her attitudes at all either, soulbrotha. So please, stop with the corny notion all she need is LGBT to tell her facts and show her love."

First of all Kevin, I never said that was all she needed to change. I said she COULD have a change of heart since she was actually seeing the similarities of the two civil rights struggles. It was her gay friends who helped her to see that. So MAYBE if they continue to reach out to her she will have more epiphanies. Who knows? I have older relatives who were just like her and they changed their thinking in the same way. Nothing "corny" about that. The thing is, you don't know this woman from a box a grits, so how do you know that she couldn't possibly change?

Former COGIC

Soulbrotha:

You make some good points. Outreach is always helpful. But some of your points come across as "If we're just nicer to them, they'll like us." That's a common meme in the black gay community and it's not working out so well for black and Latino LGBTs, esp in our churches. And many black gay men seem to think if we're just nicer (or make nicer comments on blogs) that will create a transcendent change. IMHO as black gay men we're conditioned to accept second class status and feel validated with occasional pats on the head.

Many of us have been personally harmed, victimized or demonized by church people such as Ms. Moore. Especially in our own families. I know I have. I endured COGIC for the first 3 decades of my life. You don't know what Kevin or others have gone through.

Kevin P's comments might be a little aggressive, but he can state his opinion. He doesn't have to "know' this woman personally and it comes across as silly when you and others akways throw that out. She put her story on TV and in the court and strangers have a right to express their opinion. She saw two men at the altar in her church, said it was "disgusting" (no retraction), went on a rampage and filed a lawsuit seeking a quarter million dollars. That speaks for itself. The mere fact that she withdrew the lawsuit is the only good thing here, because the church had to spend money fighting a case they would eventually win anyway.

But Ms. Moore still didnt retract her "disgusting" comment. She stood by it.

soulbrotha

@Former COGIC,

I never alluded to gays being doormats. So anyone who took that meaning from what I said is doing some serious projecting of their own issues. I didn't think that I would have to literally say "I'm not making excuses for her" in order for that to be understood but I guess I was wrong. So here tis: I am not making excuses for for her.

But as nutty as this woman sounds, she did show a glimmer of reason and THAT is what gave me hope. She mentioned gay friends who helped her to see their point of view about civil rights struggles. So you would have to admit that even though she called the couple "disgusting," she is also not completely unreasonable. We know nothing of this woman except a snippet of edited footage. She may have even come to regret some of her words. Who knows? But either way, are we to condemn people in the same way that they condemn us? Don't we constantly claim to be better than that? Or are we just full of it too?

Also, I never said that Kevin wasn't entitled to his opinion. I questioned the validity of what he said. He does not have to know the woman to state his opinion, but it does open up his statement to be challenged on it's accuracy. It's called debate.

soulbrotha

(ok for some reason my response did not post the first time so if this is duplicated my apologies.)

@Former COGIC,

I never alluded to gays being used as doormats so anyone who reads that into my comments is seriously projecting their own issues onto my words. What she said and did was wrong but that doesn't rule out a chance of enlightenment.

She showed of a glimmer of reasoning when she shared about the realization she made about the gay and black civil rights struggles, which her gay friends helped her to see. So it is quite possible that this woman, even though she said it was "disgusting," is thinking about her words, maybe even regretting them. Who knows? But if I condemn her the same way she condemned me, then who wins? Don't we constantly claim to be better than the haters? Or are we full of it, too?

Also, I never said Kevin wasn't entitled to his opinion. And he doesn't have to "know" the woman to state what he believes. But that leaves his views open for debate. It's about accuracy, COGIC, not freedom of speech. Just ask Sherri Simpson.

Kevin Perez

"But either way, are we to condemn people in the same way that they condemn us? Don't we constantly claim to be better than that? Or are we just full of it too?"

How amusing! You might as well tell us not to "judge" this woman either. I don't think I've ever claimed in my life that I'm "better" than that because I strongly believe in an eye for an eye, at least certain exceptions.

I tire and tire of White Liberals, so-called progressives, tolken LGBT of color and their alleged "straight allies" of color, people of faith, Progressive Christians lecturing about us civility, bigotry, and judging. They're "privileged" in a sense, so it's easy for them to get on their high horses and tell us how we should look at our problems. It's patronizing, obnoxious, and pretty much trivialzes how bad things really are.

I do not care if Yvonne Moore is capable of changing how she feels about LGBT, especially those of color. Good for her if she's found "the light". Nobody tells the general Black and Latino communities to show Christian love and understanding, kindness, and sympathy to Neo-Nazis, the KKK, and conservatives that hate their existence. Nobody ever accuses Black and Latinos of hostility when they rightfully express their anger over racism and discrimination. Nobody ever warns them about alienating so-called potential "allies" but when it comes to LGBT of color, we're suddenly expected to act like saints or Gandhi. WTF?

soulbrotha

Neo-Nazis? KKK? Ghandi? um..okay.

I'm not sure what ANY of that has to do with my point but whatever helps you get through the night, I guess. Hope you feel better now that you got that off your chest.

I never lectured anybody about any of things you mentioned. Matter of fact, you're the one who seems to be sermonizing. You claim not to think that you are better than other people, and then in the same breath you call other people who's views are different from yours, "patronizing" and "obnoxious." Hypocritical much?

And if I had to "judge," my conclusion would be that you and Yvonne Moore have more in common than you think. The only difference is that the "bigoted ol' she-devil" at least showed a modicum of humility. And that's a pretty sad observation.

James

I hope she get's her money! She has a right to her choice just like we do.

What "choice"? No one said it was about a "choice". She "choose" to tithe her money to the church. And she dropped the suit 'cuz she knew she would lose. gtfosmdh -RM

Kevin Perez

I have something in common with this cow? Get off your high horse! Because I refuse to appease to the notion that Miss Moore is capable of changing, and that she's a bigot no matter what, I'm on the same level? Calling me that because I'm not conforming to YOUR patronizing, sugar-coated, ideal of people "changing". Get over the fact that many people like this woman you idolize and whose views you hold to your heart cannot "change". She equated to the relationship of LGBT as disgusting. You sound a lot like apologist. She isn't going to change her mind anytime soon. But thank you, you now revealed what a lot of people who claim to support LGBT issues REALLY think.

YOU'RE the real hypocrite. I don't "tolerate" different view points that support of conservative view points on anything LGBT because they usually tend to be bigoted and against us. Why don't you tolerate "different view points" of racists? Why not label Blacks and Latinos as being hypocrites for not "tolerating" different viewpoints on race, specifically negatives ones by White people. That's the problem with folks like you and so-called Straight/religious allies, you patronize us with OBNOXIOUS POLLYANA views on how to handle LGBT issues. Being nice to people such as Yvonne Moore isn't going to solve worth a damn. Non-LGBT allies show more hypocracy and patronization on the subject matter.

My bringing up Neo-Nazis and the KKK has to do with the fact nobody DEMANDS ethnic minorities to engage in discussion or show civility to these people. Why the hell are LGBT expected to do the same and act like GANDHI and be "nice"? I'm glad that you think your role model showed humility. I don't believe in being nice to people like Miss Moore because it's a testimony to how pathetic LGBT are for sticking up for themselves and our "allies" help reinforce that as well.

Great to see you admire the woman's conservative view point and want to enage in discussion with the likes of her. I'm not. I would never show civility to someone who finds LGBT relationships "disgusting". YOU can't seem to get that.

Greg G

AJ Terrell and Soulbrotha: Blaming the victims much?

"Don't be negative"
Kevin Perez has "something in common" with a woman who called gays DISGUSTING and then SUED to recoup her tithes from the past 40 years?

Both of you are clearly brainwashed by the black church and the "Dont Ask Don't Tell" in the black community. You're suggesting that black LGBTS who demand equality or won't tolerate bigotry are the problem.

Kevin Perez will be "on the same level" with Yvonne Moore when he calls straight people disgusting, votes against gay rights legislation, sues his church and goes to the newspapers and tv stations and demand they expose "immoral" churches that promote equality.

A comment on a blog, heated rhetoric on a blog or even an poor comparison to nazis or kkk will remain just that .... heated on a blog.

I'm calling bullshyt on AJ, Soulbrotha and the "let's be nice". They really, really need to be called out. Heated rhetoric in blog comments are NOT the same level as heated rhetoric from the pulpit, from politicians and in the ballot booth. Miss Yvonne Moore is not reading comments in R20 and what we say will decide how she feels or what she does.

Some of you queens make my teeth itch every time you bring it up. You don't say a damn thing about anti-gay pastors, you don't do anything about anti-gay politicians ... but the minute people want to vent their frustrations in blog comments, you want to blame it on us.

Did this work during the civil rights struggle in the 50s and 60s? Were black folks just supposed to "be nice" and not saying anything bad or vent their frustrations?

soulbrotha

@ Kevin

If, as you say, you "strongly believe in an eye for an eye" then that means you believe in giving a person exactly what they give to you. So if she is bigoted toward you, you will in turn be bigoted toward her. And if there is equal bigotry on both sides, then what is there to distinguish you from her and vice versa? Nothing. Hatred is what you would have in common, regardless of whether it was based in ignorance or revenge. So yes, I questioned that line of thinking. However, please point out to me where I made a declaration on "how to handle all LGBT issues" or where I "DEMANDED" that LGBT's be nice to bigots. You can't because I never did. Ms. Moore stated she had gay friends who successfully helped her to see a little reason. Considering her actions that was pretty major. And THAT is who my original comment was directed toward, NOT the LGBT community at large.

Also, please point out to me exactly where I "tolerated her view point." You can't because that is an absurd lie. On the contrary, I observed that she went AGAINST the grain of her own bigotry by recognizing the parallel of gay and Black civl rights. How is that tolerating her view points? Also, I never said that she WOULD change her mind. I said that there was a possibility for change. I've seen it happen personally and there are many books and movies about people who reversed their bigotry. So it is possible. Yet you claim she WON'T change. How could you possibly know that?

As I have already stated, nothing you have said has anything to do with my stance on this matter. You latched onto one thing I said and used it in a vitriolic rant of sweeping generalizations and assumptions of who you think I am. Your accusations of pollyannaism, tokenism, idolization and patronization reflects the exact kind of knee-jerk judgments that you blast Ms. Moore for exhibiting, yet somehow you miss the irony and hypocracy of your words.

And if you believe that my views are in line with Ghandi, then I can only thank you kindly. Although I'm thinking more in line with Martin, Coretta and Nelson.

@Greg - see above. Also:

1. Show me where I "blamed the victim." You can't because I never did.
2. "Both of you are clearly brainwashed by the black church and the "Dont Ask Don't Tell" in the black community. You're suggesting that black LGBTS who demand equality or won't tolerate bigotry are the problem." - Speaking for myself, you are wrong on all counts.
3. I don't understand your point about "heated rhetoric" or what it has to do with my original comment.
4. What more can be said about anti-gay pastors that has not been said a million times already? They are what they are. The only power they have is what I give to them. And I simply don't give them any. As for politicians, my vote (if applicable) will be my voice. And by the way, "venting one's frustrations" afor your kind wordsnd "making false generalizations because you hate someone's views" are two totally different things.
5."Did this work during the civil rights struggle in the 50s and 60s?" Here is a quote from Martin Luther King, Jr.:
"Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies - or else? The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."


(P.S. Rod, I am very sorry for this long post.)

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