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01 July 2008

Comments

Derrick from Philly

So, far brown sugar Slim Jim is running a great campaign. Everything he does takes the Republicans by surprise.

Who'd have ever thought about a Democrat going after the Evangelical vote? Not the Republicans, that's for sure.

DR

Derrick, I have to disagree with you on that one. Obama's religious background and speechifying is very much expected, we have been talking about it on this blog for two years. His campaign is very religious based and he is much more conservative than many people believed.

The big question which you avoid is what Obama has to promise the white evangelicals. Unlike the black community, they won't support him for nothing. But it's very interesting how many people pretend conservatives, evangelicals and Republicans will go for Obama because he makes a pretty speech. No, he is promising them something, just like Bush promised them something.

Tony P

Well, at the CNN faith forum, Obama said he 'didn't know' when life began. And of course last week he reiterated his 'one man, one woman' marriage definition.

It's funny how the Obama crowd used to praise him as 'different' and not a 'typical' politician. Now, pandering to evangelicals is supposed to be smart. I'm sure the black churches and evangelicals have some very strong opinions on gay rights, if we ever get around to that.

Sorry, every day this campaign goes by, Obama sounds and acts more and more like Bush. And like the 2000 and 2004 elections, the Obama fan club will praise and excuse everything and never question any of his actions.

Xavier

Rod has a point. This is not really unexpected. He has been talking about Obama's religious outreach and speechifying for quite a long time, and, he has criticized Bush's faith based programs. This is mixed news.

It's important for Democrats to try to reclaim their faith and values and avoid being painted into a corner as godless heathens. However, there are core Democratic values that are in opposition to many evangelicals ... namely, choice and gay rights. Hopefully Obama can engage these people and 'frame' these issues. However, we do not want to compromise on these issues. Then the 'Democrats' are once again caving in to Republicans and aping Republican values.

Oh and yes, many of Obama's loudest supporters claimed he would not do this, he would be different. I am going to support Obama and will vote for him but I'm watching this. The big problem with Bush was he ran and acted as pastor in chief. That's not what I want from Obama, but, it is obvious he is somewhat doing that, aided and abetted by the black church and liberal bloggers impressed with everyone he says. We need a president. I have my own pastor.

Derrick from Philly

I respect your disagreement with me, and I also understand your concern about "promises" to evangelicals.

Barack has already shown what he'll promise them: nothing. What he's saying is that he'll have his own version of "Faith Based Initiatives"--and that's what these preachers want: MONEY.

But I also respect what Xavier said, Democrats don't have to give up on the religious folks. Remind them of what Jesus was really about: helping folks out of poverty, fairness & compassion--not hating homos.

How many non-black evangelical churches did Gore or Kerry speak at? How many did Clinton court, now that I think about it? It's a good campaign strategy.

Derrick from Philly

Oh, I respectfully apologize for not directing the first part of my 2nd posting to DR.

TONY P, any Obama supporter who thought they were getting the second coming of Ghandi is a fool, and they are getting a taste of reality. This is about beating Republicans for the White House, and the unbelievable goal of overcoming 300 years of white supremacy.

Me

"His campaign is very religious based and he is much more conservative than many people believed."

Many of us said this very thing when McClurkin gate hit the fan. I too have to say that I am amazed at how his supporters go along with whatever he says. A good friend of mine can find every reason in the book for excusing this man and backing him, and it annoys me to no end. He says I give him a hard time because he's not chasing the gay vote, and that's not true. (My friend is one of those gay negroes who thinks like a straight man, by the way.) I just want to see what is supposed to be so different about him - and expanding faith based initiatives is not a good look at all with the climate of this country right now. I'm gonna vote for him, but like an above poster said, it will be with caution.

I'm not expecting anything different from him at this point and nobody else should either. A lot of his loudest supporters are setting themselves up to be let down.

Tony P

Derrick, we don't know what Obama says to religious leaders and evangelicals because those meetings are private, and, has been pointed out on these pages many times, Obama refuses to meet with gay groups.

He talks to the Advocate once, buys ads in a few newspapers and now sends Mrs. Obama to meet with the gays. But we don't know personally how these faith-based initiatives would impact gays because, as Rod has pointed out numerous times, he doesn't meet with us.

I'm also very confused about some of your statements. It seems that whatever Obama says or does it's okay, even if he contradicts himself, because we want him to win. That was exactly what he promised he wouldn't do and many of you consistently accused Clinton of doing. Also, I never knew Obama's nomination and election was about ending '300 years of white supremacy.' He was supposed to be 'post-racial' and 'beyond race', but we all knew that wasn't true. But your comment explains how Clinton was smeared and attacked for being a racist when we all knew it wasn't true.

I wish him the best of luck but it's become ridiculous for the ObamaNation to flip-fop even more so than Obama. At least many of you can finally admit you don't care about gay rights privacy rights or who was the stronger candidate. Just winning.

DR

Morris, nice try, but I'm black. And with Obama getting 95 percent of the black vote, let's not pretend its strictly on the issues.

So now we're trying to pretend Obama doesn't pander? In the past two weeks, he has changed positions on public financing, warrantless wiretapping, handguns and Iraq. So yes, I'm going to assume the only reason Obama 'courts evangelicals' is because of their votes. But it is clearly a major reason.

Or did you read the first sentence of the NYT article? Or do you think this has anything to do with Rev. Wright and the backlash?

Rod Mc

MORRIS Do you have an opinion on faith-based initiatives in the black church, such as housing and HIV programs, and its discrimination against gay men? Or, any concerns for expanding this program? I'm very curious because you ignored that part of the post and have never addressed gay rights in any comments until now.

FWIW, I've written about Obama's framing of some gay rights issues for mainstream audiences on this blog and at The Advocate, where I'm a columnist. However, gay activists and journalists still have many questions. Mentioning 'gay' in a campaign rally is very different than talking about implementing policy.

Let's get back on topic, please.

Ryan

ooh look everyone: Morris back with the same rhetoric and conservative obama talking points...

did Camp Obama give them to you personally or have you been steadily watching BNN (Barack News Network)for the daily points? do tell morris!

honestly, obama is now a politican who is pandering to EVERYONE he can in order to "win" in November..this is no different.

He'll speak the "marriage is for one man and one woman" to the evangelicals; he'll preach something totally different to catholics if he wants them to vote for him, and he'll preach something totally different for the progressive religious liberals to get their vote...

Barack is doing EVERYTHING he is supposed to in order to WIN in november...

please dont think he's doing anything "new" or "revolutionary" he is the candidate of "change"...but will NOT change the status quo for how a campaign should run UNLESS it suits him...

so expect the pandering to continue ...what's funny is that people are NOW accusing him of the same things that Hillary did in her campaign and oddly enough, he's using similar strategies as she did too...who knew? and hillary only did what any smart politican would do to forward their campaign...

im just wondering when the obamabots and sycophants will just ante up and acknowledge that their "transcendent", "revolutionary", and "progresive" thinking messiah is just as conservative, and republican esque as many of the centrist republicans are...

honestly, at times, i cant tell obama and mccain apart in terms of strategies and agendas because they BOTH sound eerily the same....

think about that, obama stepford kiddies...

ROD MC

MORRIS "I expect the faith-based initiatives program led by an Obama administration will award monies quite differently than one led by Bush. The problems you quoted in the post are specific to what's happened w/ the program under Bush."

In other words, you have absolutely no idea. Unless you believe the White House will require grant recipients to be pro-LGBT rights or require churches and groups to serve gay clients. The first option is politically untenable and the other would be blatantly illegal.

While many good organizations and causes have benefited from faith based initiatives, many others have discriminated against LGBT persons, especially those connected with the black church. It's been a huge issue in our community for years and has been reported across the media. I'm not going to ignore two years of criticisms and automatically change my opinion ... just because Obama says his plan will be better. I am not sure if his plan will be a net positive or a net liability and will withhold judgment. However, I'm always amazed by the cheerleaders who know absolutely nothing about policy or legislation and rah-rah everything Obama.

You can support a candidate without having to agree with them on everything.

GREG G

Morris, no offense, but Rod sits on the Obama LGBT conference calls and has been writing about these issues on this blog and at the Advocate for a couple of years. If he doesn't know if Obama's program will be better for gays than Bush's, umm, what do you know that he doesn't? Did the 'speech' and press release tell you all you needed to know?

Oh, and Ryan your commentary is always spot-on about the amen-chorus. I'm going to vote for Obama and support him, but it's crazy to ignore everything he says and does that gave us pause. You hold politicians accountable, you don't give them a pass. Obama is working for us, we're not working for him. If we keep giving him a pass now, he will owe us nothing later.

Duwayne

I for one actually think this is a great idea. I go to a church that could use this money to provide more outreach to inner city kids and create a safe haven for them with an expanded after school program. We could also set up a food pantry and do HIV/AIDS outreach if we had more money. We are just a small progressive church but with many goals to help those in need. I don't believe only conservative churches would recieve the money, I actually think Obama would be much more balanced than Bush and would help us smaller churches get some of the money to do good works.

Ryan

Phone Call: RRRRRRR

Morris: Who is this?

Ryan: QUIT.DRINKING.THE.OBAMA.KOOL.AID.BARWACK.IS.PANDERING.HE. IS.A.CONSERVATIVE.CENTRIST.IN.DEMOCRAT.CLOTHING.

Morris: How dare you attack my messiah for "change"....

Ryan: THAT IS ALL (CLICK)

good enough for you?

Ooh, Morris, be a dear and tell Obama to demand that more stimulus checks and similar programs should be rolled out. I mean, giving dead folk $600 checks, not giving those who filed before april 15th their money, etc. is REALLY going to help boost the economy, which is in recession...or, "financially frozen and stratified", as them fierce Republican pundits be saying on tv and stuff...

oh wait, that's right...didn't obama say that the economy will improve with these stimulus checks? shades of bush perhaps?

I'm sure you'll fill Ms. Obama in a the next Obama for "Change" pre-4th of July shits and giggles cookout, mkay?

Say what you want, Morris, but your constant and obsessive blindness to the truth is frightening to me. With people like you leading the charge, Obama SO has this wrapped up in November...NOT.

Jim

Ryan, I'm probably as far from an Obama fan as anyone who posts here regularly. I will not vote for him in November. (Since I live in a state that will go for Obama even if its the last one in the country that does, I don't have to consider that whole "lesser-of-two-evils" argument, only whom I really agree with.)

Nevertheless, your shade is quite ugly.

Maybe Morris has written something offensive in the past that deserves this, but I read nothing here in this thread that does.

Rod Mc

DUWAYNE You make some good points. Indeed, there are progressive churches doing some good work in the community, and, can fill the void left by cuts in social service funding. A potential Obama Administration would probably expand the grantee pool and the accounting would probably be better managed.

MORRIS Bless your heart for parachuting into a two-year-old discussion. Over a three month period, you have 25 comments and the vast majority were Clinton v Obama related, mostly anti-Clinton. Only one other comment was gay rights-related and that time you also said you "agreed" with Obama. Now you say the "problems" experienced by gay men seeking service from churches were "specific" to the Bush Administration ... and imply they would not happen under Obama.

Okay. There is nothing left to discuss. Thanks.

Ryan

but morris..THAT'S what pandering is..

Obama has been disturbingly on pace with Bush and the rest of the republican party in regard to his faith based initiatives, which have led many of the talking heads on the news channels to question his other positions of note right now, and have linked his faith based initiative stance with his stimulus check/improving the economy beliefs, etc.

i'm only doing what they are paid to do EVERY DAY on the news...i dont see how im off topic when this is so very ON topic..

Jim: no shade here. just me giving an opinion in this post to a poster who, prior to this primary and general election, came out of nowhere...shade, no, just realness. if you don't like it, well, dont read my comments. Clearly, you do find something in them that made you throw pause because you came to his defense. I tell the truth as I see it and how I interpret--what Morris sees as "fact", I take a further look and see inconsistencies. Many people do.

I'm all for obama being president. But, if he's flip flopping on issues now, why would I believe he would be the very president he claims to be: one for "change" and "transcendency". Like everyone on this board, I am allowed to question and challenge all information presented to me.

If Morris can't accept that, that isn't my issue. That's his, and you should address that with him. Not me.

Derrick from Philly

TONY P:

I knew my comment about overcoming 300 years of white supremacy wasn't clear. I did not mean that Barack's election would end white supremacy in this country--I'd have to believe he was the second coming of Ghandi to do that. I meant that the very election of Barack Obama would involve people putting away (or aside) the notion that only white men are fit to lead this nation. If he is elected it would mean that many White and Black Americans have gotten over a racial hurdle that I never expected them to do in my lifetime.

I am a Democrat. Whatever Democrat won the nomination was going to get my support, and my support will grow stronger the closer we get to the general election. He is my candidate and (temporarily) my hero just as Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Dukakis, Mondale, Carter, McGovern, Humphrey & Johnson were. I can't really remember Kennedy--I was too busy trying to be Judy Garland back then.


Yes, Tony P, for some of us Democrats it is ALL about winning the White House, and rescuing the US Supreme Court from fascism.

Rod Mc

MORRIS Eight rants in one thread is ridiculous and has become par for the course. It's especially tiresome coming from someone who admits they have no opinion on the topic.

You have been warned before about your tone and were merely asked to leave the thread. You are banned from this blog. Comment no further.

Tony P

Derrick, you are absolutely right. I jumped the gun on that one, still a little sore from the primary. I'm getting on the unity train, even though it's taking me a minute to sort my baggage and punch my ticket. Please accept my apology.

You are absolutely right on the message that Obama's nomination and election will send. I'm hopeful that he wins but still have some critiques. However, there is not a doubt that his candidacy has inspired millions of people. Hopefully, many young black men will adopt him as a role model. Oh, and I love your stories.

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